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hi guys:thumb: I know im a pain:hugs:, so will keep it short,but I was wondering if anyone in this division next winter wanted to extend it to 15 games, please let me know your thoughts as we got till next month by the 16th august,to put it through to the league secretary, and want to know if we just had it for the top 2 divisions or just the 1st, as I know a few of you didn't want the change, but its upto you guys, but I want more frames next winter as 11 is not enough, let us know your thoughts as we need a seconder, cheers guys :handshake:

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I must say i agree with you for ONCE neil lol.i would like to see it go 15 frames..11 is a bit low.or even maybe 13

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We play 15 frames in Redhill & have done for a few years now. It works well, most (if not all) teams prefer it & most matches are finshed by 11.30pm, especially in the Prem.

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I think a frame of scotch should be implemented in each set...

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I like the idea of 15 frames on a Tuesday but the enforcement of the shot clock must be used. Some teams don't use the clock even though they should and can bore you to death watching a game.

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with teams with big squads it would be a benefit as most teams with big squads only get 1 frame each and most players would like at least 2 frames.
could possibly have 3 sets of 5 frames with a new start time of 8pm
this would also get rid of that I frame decider if its 5 all.:D:

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Welcomd from NSW, Australia

Right the 15 game thing..I play the same in SLKPA, South London and there are a few differences. The oppo turning up on time being the major. Starting at 8.40 as most games do in our division is surely a no-no. Yes I know there are teams who turn up late but I'm an advocate of more pool but there should be:

1. New start time of 8pm
2. 9 singles, 4 scotch doubles

That's it to be honest. If people don't agree with my take I couldn't give to hoots :winking:

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i think this is a awful idea! by adding more frames you are taking away the chance of a shock win for the weaker teams n for suggesting a different format for higher divisions is a insult to the the lower divisions! lower division teams should be treated the same as higher division team end off! before i comment on the scotch idea Ben i am interested? how would this work n would they get a ranking points? do select your pairing after da single games? sorry about my grammar never been that good at english!

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obviously the rankings would have to accommodate a new format but its doable. Perhaps one player from the pairing would have to be the one who cant play twice in a set and gets the ranking points as if it were a singles game and his partner can be anyone, even another singles player from the same set. There are many ways round it, they used scotch in a league I played in when I was in notts and it gave a new aspect and bought the team together more.

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15frames is the way forward. .8pm start a must put 3 names down n start playing bang on 8...clock isa must,scotch doubles isa dreadful idea doubles games r the slowest games in the league...div1 only simply as lower division players tend to mis a lot more finishes so there frames tend to take longer,they can try it if they wish but dont complain if the nite turns into a late 1...croydon league always as ad trouble keeping up with the times so lets hope...finally I believe shocks could stil happen as over longer distances better players tend to get a bit complacent:angel:

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ok this doesn't sound bad it could be worth a try? so yea if i could i would vote for that maybe not adding ranking just team points tho? !

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not too sure how scotch can be a dreadful idea on the basis that it will make the match take longer. I guess that makes adding 4 more frames a dreadful idea too then?

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jacko i rarely disagree with what you write on here but you still wrote could still happen meaning less likely! you say you think about the best for the league. this time i don't you are my friend! say if we had to play a best of 3 i would like to think could take 1frame n lucky nick a second what wouldn't happen so if we was to play best of 7 what chance do i have by me saying this why make the stronger teams, players stronger n make the the weak weaker new teams will come get bored of being beaten by huge scores while stronger teams destroy division look at biggin they are 20 something points clear with more frames they would be 30 points clear! not many low division player write on here so everyone doesn't think about them! you all like to play pool n have a drink but we want to have a drink n play pool! even tho this own decision doesn't mean we shouldn't have a say

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i do think Ben has a good idea? wat if a team only has 5 players tho i think 2 not 4 frames would be better

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15 frames would definatly favour the stronger teams no question about that and as sk8shaun said where is the fun in that! I think if you do 15 frames it has to be across all the divisions not just 1st or 2nd. Personally I would love to see the KO cup come down to best of 7 as this would give most teams a shot at an upset! I know this means players will turn up and maybe not play but it would certainly spice things up! doubles is interesting but can't see many teams wanting it. Biggest issue with 15 is the time scale and in lower divisions this will be more of an issue! But this discussion comes up every year so see what happens.

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Sk8shaun ur completely wrong.and jacko is in fact took the words right out of my mouth.i agree fully.and scotch doubles wld slow the match time as a doubles game takes a hell of alot longer than most.and yh i think it should only be for div one n two as there matches will take longer.but its up to those divisions and not me and dnt effect me.but i cld see some teams still playing at 2 o clock lol

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Il have my pennies worth then:
15 frames is the way forward having played it in reigate.
If It gives an opportunity to play more pool then how can that be bad?
Starting at 8pm should never be a problem as most teams r there early anyway( with exception of jacko)
15 frames or 11 frames - the best team will always win the league so that makes no difference.
Scotch doubles - no no no no no , i 100% agree with jacko it is not needed, it will slow the match down to a halt and thats the last thing u need in a 15 frame night.
15 frames in reigate r usually done by 10pm ,lower teams may take longer but not 2 hrs longer but thats what the clocks for so just time the game and its all gravy!
What i will add is please can someone vote in that we have a coin toss for the first game and alternate the rest, this flipping for every frame is stupid!
It means some teams can get through a whole match without a break if their unlucky!

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Ok, lets start a heated debate

I don't want 15 frames personally.
I struggle to get to matches by 8.15 as it is, would really struggle to get there by 8.

Don't really want to be getting home any later than i already do on a Tuesday night at the moment.

Don't want to start 3-0 down when we only turn up with 4 players, starting 2-0 down is bad enough (& yes i know this is my teams fault & we should sign more players)

Although the best team will win the league regardless of the amount of frames, at the moment you still have the possibility of an upset on the night over 11 frames, this would be much more unlikely over 15 frames.

Mentally you can just about accept an 8-3 or 9-2 defaet on a bad night, getting beaten 13-2 or 14-1 is just going to demorolise teams & we will end up with even fewer teams in the league than we do already.

Not every venue will accomodate pool past a certain time should the matches go on longer than expected.

Scotch doubles in any team format is the worst idea ever, as said by many already, it is the slowest game there is & is just plain boring to watch.

We have had this debate before, & although this thread doesn't reflect it at the moment the majority were against moving to 15 frames.

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I am very much anti doubles in legue pool. I played 6 singles 3 doubles in the Tolworth League some years ago. It was the most pointless thing I have ever been involved in.

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In Edinburgh there's a wee tourney going on as the season is over, they are testing out 14 frames and that's 7 singles each. I don't think it's gonna hit off.

Anyways we play 8 singles and 4 doubles here, I'm hoping that we do get 5 frames ASAP in Edinburgh, just posting here to point out the 7 singles format.

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Well said met..some people might not get there till 8.15 as it is.but u just put down the players that are first...simple.and it wnt finish that much later

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Totally agree Metin so is anybody interested in seconded this at the meeting For division 1 only to see how it goes for just next season

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Yes met the alternate breaking is so obviously its laughable we don't already do it...n guys I do understand there r down sides as in huge defeats r possible n teams may dominate the league but more frames is surely better..n chris lots ov guys cum n go at different times ona pool nite n others r there all nite so for example u could play later in the 1st set n early in the last set if ur time is limited n if other teams with bigger squads av players with limited time then they can juggle there squad around to accommodate every1....pro's outway the cons me thinks :angel:

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Jacko why don't we put this to the meeting next month both options for division 1 mate let's make it happen and stop all this talking about it every season and when we show them it works we can then move Croydon pool up another level :handshake:

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The one thing you have to consider Neil, it not the 1st Division that decide what happens in Division 1. Its up to the whole league. Yes there is a history of things being different, but it still has to be agreed by all. Remember the League Cup format, rankings and the like effect everybody so any change to just one division will still have implications elsewhere.

I dont really see anything wrong in the format we have, coin toss aside.

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But like Knocky said a lot of teams now have bigger squads and turn up every week and 9/10 don't get a shot in the top division at least this way the top boys get 3 games every week and it can work across all divisions if we give it a chance and I want to propose this at the meeting and if any secretary out there that wants to help put this across at the meeting let us know? Come on Croydon Lets give it a go we did with introducing the 11th game and I hate the play off games and it's only 4 extra games.

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15 frames way forward I personally want this to happen I don't understand why people are banging on about getting raped if its 15 frames what's the difference if u are losing 10-1 9-2 u are still getting raped lol.... 15 frames makes more of a night of it if u sign that paper work u commit to a Tuesday nite u commit to playing pool so whys that a bad thing? Personally I love scotch maybe playing the 15 frame as scotch would be interesting that would be kinda good in my eyes. Lets get this done 11 frames is boring!

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I think that 15 frames is a awful idea. The league is Always about getting new teams and there is no way they will get new teams with this idea. They have found it heard to keep we teams will 11 frames. This idea it based to strethen 1 Division and 2 rather than the league. I think 11 frames is more than enough, anything more would destroy the lower division.

Now I can only speak for my team , but we enjoy going every Tuesday as we go out have a good laugh, I understand it may be shorter in the upper divisions , but more frames will kill the league as no new tems will join as getting beat 15 - 0 or something similar will be just as bad.

Also this post came from plan b in the bottem division, just my thoughts

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At 7/7 its still a play off game no?!

Does this mean you DONT get to play then?! :D:

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Met I proposed this at the AGM a couple of seasons ago as it's the way we play Interleague and County as you know. Unfortunately it got booted straight out. No-one was interested as they said that it would mean teams would change the order that they played their players.

I still think it should be brought it, so if you can find anyone to put in the proposal i'm happy to second it

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i liked the 7 frame format, i like the 10 frame format and i like the 11 frame format.
but i'm not a fan of the 15 frame format...

the gap between top teams and the lower teams will be bigger with more frames, hence matches won't be so intense and each frame will have more importance and hence more pressure, which i like.

at the moment if your 4 or 5-0 down you can still get something out of the game, that isn't so likely when your 7-0 down

i've played in the reigate league and when you've already won 8-2 the remaining frames are pointless

for me tuesday night is about a bit of pool and a bit of drinking with your mates... i don't wanna be playing pool all night, clock watching...

i would like to see alternate breaks tho
and the individuals needs to be altered now if level to your 2nd frame or % cos we can't have the fiasco of last year of 6 winners, then 2 mates bottling a play-off and sharing it!

and as for jacko suggesting starting earlier, i can only assume he has an insider at the BBC that tells him east enders is gonna be aired an hour earlier then usual!

if it ain't broke don't try and fix it!

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I think if it is proposed in the KO cup should be reduced to first to 5...

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Denzil ur completely wrong.redhill do this and still get teams enter.and new teams wnt even know the old format of 11 frames any way.there not gunna go-oh dear its 15 frames lets not enter lol...neil and cathy get it done done.seems most players agree.even the top players

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Andye alot of people take it seriously and dnt use a tue nite as a piss up.if thats wot u want then go to the pub and just have a few frames n a few beers..most people agree with it.more than people who look at just the negatives...pros out weigh the cons...so wot if other teams get beat by a better team and the gaps more..sign better players or practice more lol

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BOOM !
ERRRRRR RANG is back.

Wohhhhhh, we have a visitor and his merry men to Div 1 this winter for 1 season only and already he's stirring things up and trying to dictate the pace to us fully fledged div 1 teams.
I think not. You're liked best in div 2 and you'll be headed straight back after your experience with us.

For all of you that were present at an AGM some time back when Cathy did indeed propose a 15 frame format, you will remember that it was rejected and thrown out for lack of positve votes. Although the league did compremise and changed it to an 11 frame format so that each match would have a winning team.

If the majority of you (as it seems) really would welcome the 15 frame format then I suggest you badger your Secretary and make sure he attends each and every AGM to represent your views. Without him there, your voice doesn't count so how can we know what the majority would really wish for the future of this league.

I for one am in favour of 15 frames and know for sure that we will complete a match in adaquate time.
The only problem I see which could hinder this is that there won't be enough space on the score card for another block of 5 !!!!!!!!!!!! And I don't want to carry a bigger peice of paper.

There, I've had my say and I'm sticking with it lol.

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Yes tel...n andy me n hughie bottled it did we,yea coz wev never ad any bottle av we...how maybe didnt wana play in the 1st place n new there woz 2 trophies so shared it at the earliest possible time...I believe play offs for winas is bs the trophie is for most wins no matter how many tie...n andy my ego does not require an outright win as I aint got nothing to prove unlike sum who av never won anything individually. ..bottle lol wat u talking bout willis :angel:

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thing is floyd most teams dont take it seriously and for most players its a night out with the lads and a game of pool in that order! and talk of finishing by 10-10.30 by starting at 8pm just wont happen! we played a match tues 8.15 start finished around 11.05 so add another 4 frames your looking at midnight and i know a few div 1 players who dont want the 15 frame format for that reason! like last year reading this forum you would get the impression everyone wanted it but then theres only a minority of regular users who post on here so its not really a true reflection of how many feel. if it happens then so be it but personally id rather it not but then thats just my opinion.

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brindle, do you really think i don't take it seriously? believe me i probably practice harder then most in the league, but i do like the balance of pool and socialising.
just because the pros out weigh the cons for you it doesn't mean it does for anyone else!
i play for the eagles so signing up new players to compete really isn't the issue. we win most games but i like matches to be closer and more competitive

jacko, nice bite btw.... there were 6 of you who finished top of the individuals, you can't start a playoff and then when 2 team mates make the final decide to split it, it's either all or nothing. i've been involved in a play-off and it's toughie as people lose when they don't deserve to, having finished top
that's why i think there should be a deciding factor, 2nd frames of % of wins

i agree also the KO cup should be close cut as it open it up more

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At 7/7 mate it would be a play off but we don't get to choose who plays it as we would have 3 sets of 5 which is the way forward and we are done by most nights by 10.00/10.30 and would welcome extra, funny Marc about getting 3 games at least you would get at a game? :haha:

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Cathy I will second it with the card to be filled in and when the match starts with the first toss then the players can't be altered as no one will know who has the break until the first game,
Also want to propose 15 games for the top division or top 2 and try it and see what there thoughts are at the next meeting?
What's the next steps do we send it to the league committee ?

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re toss, 2 scenarios there, flip the coin then write out your team or fill out the card and then flip...
i personally think you flip then chose your batting order as this adds another tactic to the night, likewise you don't want to have to put your whole team down before the toss!

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As I've previously stated, I have proposed bringing the coin toss in to the league at the AGM before and if I remember correctly there was not one vote for it!!! If someone else wants to have a go then you've definitely got my vote.

The sad thing reading this forum is that the people asking for changes to the league format are the ones that never turn up to AGMs.

Neil you want to bring in 15 frames...if you want it so bad why don't you propose it and actually turn up to a meeting? I don't actually think I have ever seen you turn up at one! The AGM is there for teams to have their say via their secretarys, it's no good saying you want this and that to change without actually putting it in writing and being at the meeting to back up your proposal.

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write the card then lag? you can still win the lag and hand the first break over.

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Keeping it simple...

I am secretary for The Eagles, and on this thread alone, you have Shaggy and Wiggy anti 15 frames, and Met pro 15 frames.
So even just looking inside our own team I can see opinions for and against, to the point where I'm not even sure how The Eagles would vote, as I'd have to canvas the rest of the guys and give a fair refelction of our team.

With that in mind.... It's fair to say it will split opinions all over the league, regardless of ability, dedication and league status.

There are very good reasons for and against the change, but while both arguments almost cancel eachother out, then the status quo will remain. I'm personally sat well on the fence for this one. Some excellent points made for 15, and some excellent reasons to stay as we are.

What is conclusive from talking to people and readin on here is to sort the coin toss out.
As the Redhill League do, and also Interleague, the Away team breaks first, and all subsequent odd frames there after, with the home team breaking evens.
Pick your teams accordingly.
Away team gets one more break than the home side.

With Cup games at neutral venues, toss a coin to decide who's the designated home team.

Lagging I am very much opposed to.... Might look good on the 9 Ball tables on the telly, but 8 ball tables are not built to have 2 people take a shot from the same baulk end, especially people with salad dodging tendancies like myself.

Say "No" to Lagging.

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The coin toss rule change needs to happen and im certain one of the eagles will attend to help with the vote.
As for the 15 frame rule i actually dont mind it either way i just like that there is more pool.
If you do it for one league i think you have to change it for the entire divisions!
I actually prefered the 10 game league of old to the now 11 as i thought draws were quite nice to have, there doesnt always have to be a winnerin a league game, its very yank like !!! as is lagging on an 8 ball table- im with kelly on that.

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Andy i wasnt implying u dnt practice mate

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actually andy I fancy the 2nd frame stat would b good to decide matters but only in the 2nd half ov the season as it would not b fair on guys who only play 1frame but cum the halfway point ov the season im sure there captain wil giv them a 2nd frame as there stats wil obviously b good enuf to av earnt it,then if stil tied ud av2 count all 2nd frames I guess...we play twice most weeks so we would ava big advantage if there woza tie...tbh thinking bout it personally im happy with the current 11frame format as i play 2 or 3 frames n fck if i want the hassle ov timing but for many ov u guys who rarely geta 2nd frame surely it wil b better for u to up it to 15...alternate breaks a must n league cup ranking points need to be adjusted to the average ov the 4 divisions which may b 4 / 4.5 dono to reflect how ard it is to win that frame,the current 5points is ridiculas asa div1 win is 5.25 which is much much harder to achieve :angel:

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Hi Neil.

I've heard such proposition before, and the biggest issues for me, that might stop it from being voted through are:-

1. Lower league team games tend to take longer so there will not be support for such a structure from those of us who have played past midnight under the current structure.

2. Some venues have kicking out times and may not have the flexibility to accommodate extra frames, and newer teams interested in joining the CPL should be able to participate at a 'joiner level' that isn't perceived as a 'barrier to their entry'.

So, if this proposition is to gain universal accord, I'd suggest the following:-

A) The proposed 15 game format in the league is only applicable to Div 1, with a 13 game format in Div 2, an 11 game format in Div 3 and a 9 game format in Div IV or lower. Rules concerning minimum players per fixture should reflect these amendments with teams being required to field the minimum number of players per fixture capable of winning the fixture if every game were to be won by the minimum player turn-up (2 player in IV, 3 player in III, 3 player in II and 4 player in I - assuming the format remains the same being two halves (sorry about this Two Half's) and a deciding final game).

If you are thinking of amending it to a 3 set with just a 5 player fixture list, of course this won't work too well, as for my thinking on consistency we'd need Div I teams to field 7 players for 7 games in each 'half' before playing the decider (with 6 in II, 5 in III and 4 in IV). I think we'd need a secondary resolution if you were thinking of amending it to a 3x5 format.

B ) If any league fixture reaches 11:30pm without completion of their scheduled games, that a coin toss should be permitted to decide any remaining yet to be completed frames at the request of either secretary.

C) Team KO cup & League cup fixtures to be played to an 11 game format, until the latter stages.

If such a compromised proposition were to be put through, I think the lower league team secretaries could accept it.

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No disrespect to your thread blink but why do u make potting 7 yellows or reds and a black ball on small table sound so hard? People sign up on a Tuesday to play the game so lets play it 15 frames all the way come on lads!

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toss of a coin (lol)if still going after 11.30 pm
you cant be serious.

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Lol I read through all that what seemed to be a sensible post regarding less frames per division the got to that bit a bout a coin toss'
Good luck with that proposal!

If people do want more frames then why not 14 (2x7)
We used to play 7 frames so it would be doubling that
You can get a draw which is sometimes a fair result but also that's the way it's played in Yarmouth in the finals!

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There has been a lot of opinion put forward, and with good reasoning behind it. I am not going to say anyone is right or wrong, because this is a debate, and it is all about opinion.

My observations are:

I understand that higher divisions want more frames, because this brings it in to line with other leagues and representative level. However, they are higher division because they have greater skill, and will finish matches quicker by needing fewer visits to the table.

Enforcing a shot clock to speed things up will not make a great deal of difference if there is no attacking pool being played. A fudge fest will require a far greater number of shots to be played, and it is the number of shots that affects the time a frame takes more than the time each shot takes.

As mentioned before, venues control the "end time" of an evening, and those teams that play from social clubs are far more likely to have an end time enforced upon them.

Any change that occurs would be put across all divisions. Mark Halsey would have a logistical nightmare trying to deal with different formats for each division, not to mention the adjustment promoted and relegated teams would have to make (and that is almost half of every division!).

There are many teams that have players who work late/come from London/work shifts/drive for a living. Bringing the start time forward would make it even harder for them to attend and potentially cost the league players.

Like most others on this thread, I (and many of my team) would enjoy playing more frames each Tuesday - on an individual level - but practicality factors being as they are, I doubt that a proposal to have 15 frames a night would get passed - not least because AGM turnouts are now approximately 35% of the available teams, when it used to be double that.

I am not trying to piss on anyone's parade...the league has adapted over the years - just think about how the world rules came in, and also that the playing distance has been increased over the last few years - but I feel that 15 frames is a step too far at the present time.

Just my opinion - no need to shoot me for it!!!

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My opinion

Over the last few seasons i have seen formation of "super teams" being formed, whereby very good players seem to be all joining one or two teams especially in division two. These teams then walk away with the league. I believe 15 frames is now being promoted to keep all those good players happy. If you are a good player you want more than 1 frame a night but if you have 8 very good players its a struggle to do that.

Already we are seeing teams disbanding and we are losing divisons.

The interests of the league needs to be put first and i believe increasing the number of frames will lead to a smaller league, better players with all be it a better quality of pool being played.
However
Question is will CPL then become a closed shop which ultimately discourages new players or teams?
Will that ultimately cut CPL off from its roots The Croydon social club or local pub?
If this is adopted careful consideration on encouraging new teams should be discussed as well.

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quite simple really.

lower div teams that are moaning about more frames being played and teams that struggle with 4 players some weeks all you need to do is this:

Have 12 frames on a Tuesday so its only 1 additional frame but have 3 sets of 4. therefore teams that can only field a team of four and not 5 like it is now will not be losing a frames per set.

Also it adds an extra frame to the night. Shot clock for all games.

Problem solved...

simples!

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it will solve the problem of not having enough but will create a problem of strong teams not needing depth if they go with four strong players.

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You could apply a rule to that format that a player cannot play more than 2 sets

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DAS IS GOOD:P:P

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What an attractive proposition for pubs and clubs. As if pool players dont demand enough, when a team pops out for a nights refreshment, there will only be 8 people to serve.

7 man team, 5 man team, now 4 man team! Wank... Might as well just have a doubles league and close down the team league.

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Agree with shaggy, 4 man team is laughable.
Either change to 15 or leave as it is but no change to anything else.

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A lot of different opinions from some of the top boys :bow:
How about 14 games across all divisions and that way we get to play 3 more games :thumb:and I know it sounds stupid but we should bring back draws as some times that is a fair result.
As some teams may have lost 6 v 5 and feel a draw would of been fairer,

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Make it 12 frames and continue to sneak it up to 15 at future AGMs. The illogical 11th frame finally makes sense to me.

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Rather than looking at number of frames played, surely you need to look at number of players needed to fulfil a fixture. If we are sticking with a minimum of 5 players, then in reality you either stick with 11 frames or jump to 15. If you switch to any other number of frames, e.g. 12, 13, 14, then you are changing the number of players required.

So surely, at the AGM, It's the minimum number of players needed to play all frames in a match that needs to be voted on first.

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Getting boring now, vote and stop chatting!

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after reading all I want to put in a proposal for 14 games,
so we can have draws back 7 v 7 and a 1 point bonus for a draw, and 2 points for a win bonus, then everybody happy, more frames and draws and I know a few were discussing to bring in bonus points, which is also I good idea, so who really wants to 2nd it as we need to asap before the agm............................:computer:

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I think if this is put forward frames should be secondary. We should adopt a points system of 3pts for a win, 1 for a draw. A win is a win regardless of the score and will reflect better within the league over a season.

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14 frames at 2 x 7 per half would mean a team needing a minimum of 7 players. Considering the amount of teams, us included that seem to struggle to get 5 players at the moment i can't see that being voted in.

Should stay at 11 or moved up to 15 so 5 players would still make a team, i don't think 14 frames is a good proposal, for the sake of 1 frame you may as well elimate the opposition from teams with less than 7 players that you will definitely get at 14 frames & just go for 15 instead. the only opposition you will get then is from teams that don't want to increase the amount of frames.

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Chris you make a fair point in saying 5 minimum players :handshake:I think we should still keep it at that and the captain then has a choice who he plays for the final set of 4 games with only a possible 4 players playing 3 games a nite

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That could work, but i still think a straight change to 15 frames at 3 x 5 per set is your best bet, with no other changes, forget the bonus point & all the other stuff like 3 points for a win & scoth doubles & all that, the more confusing it is, the more likely people will not understand, lose interest & vote against it.

15 frames at 3 sets of 5 is simple & straightforward, you won't spend most of the night answering untold questions if you stick to that.

Think it won't get voted in regardless & for my own personal reasons am against increasing the frames anyway, but if it is going to change, a simple straight forward change is your best bet in my opinion.